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What is Meta

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1 What is Meta on Wed Oct 26 2016, 22:20

Anaya

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Anaya
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What is Meta
June 19, 2016 06:51PM

https://theroomfillswithwater.files.wordpress.com/2016/02/meta-gaming.jpg?w=460&h=352


What is Metagameing?

From urban dictionary
metagaming
When game information outside of what is available in a game is used to give a player an advantage in-game. Most commonly seen and frowned upon in many forms of role playing especially when consent has not been given.
Example a.

A dungeons and dragons adventure team comes across an unknown monster in-game. The meta-gamer knows this monster through out-of-game information. Using this information, the metagamer's character acts upon the monster's weaknesses and attributes despite the character having never seen the monster before.

Example b.

In an online pan-fandom RPG, Ryoga from Ranma 1/2 meets Ken from Street Fighter for the first time and they have a fight to the death. Ken finds some water in a random nearby bucket and dumps it on Ryoga, then proceeds to pummel the life out of Ryoga who is now transformed into a tiny black pig because of his water curse.

In this case, Ken's role player is meta-gaming.


That is the basic idea of what meta-gaming is, now some examples of meta here on imvu,

-Player A uses information on players Bs rpc she found from player Bs bio posted on an imvu group page.

-Jilly is dating Dan and they get into a fight over skype, she takes out her anger on Dans rpc by breaking his legs.

-Jilly reads on DisNuts profile card he is a T1 fighter, she goes and uses T5 as she assumes he will be at a disadvantage.

-DisNuts goes to his imvu room and does not want combat, he puts zones in his room description, zones are an out of chara way of preventing combat in role play. This is another form of metagaming used often.

-Clare made a Medieval role play, she made it so there were only blades shields, wood and metal only weapons just like there would be in the 14th century. Robert goes and joins her role play he has a long blade, he wants to make his rpc strong, so he goes on the internet and looks up the biggest best weapon he can find that fits the setting, then, magically his rpc now knows how to craft it or has it already.

-Using group page, profile card or anything found on a web page to affect actions inside of role play. (unless you are in a future set rp and computers exist then you can legitly look things up on the net in story line or browse a groups group page online IF they in story line state they have one)

-Tom plays a vampire, Jilly does not know a thing about them, she goes onto the internet and looks them up and finds out holy kills vampires, now her demon rpc can use holy.

Listed up there are some common and most used meta-gaming flaws in role play. Not there is also the hidden meta-gamer that to the naked eye seems like they are following the rules but in reality, they are going under your nose and meta-gaming. You have to be careful with this kind of player, they look cool and smooth on the outside but really they are lying to you and may just disrupt and ruin your game, this will be covered in full on another topic.

Anaya



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2016 06:51PM by Anaya.

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NamelessAssailant
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Re: What is Meta
June 20, 2016 01:46AM

Well written, I thought I would have a wee look seen as we were talking about it yesterday.

Quote:
-DisNuts goes to his imvu room and does not want combat, he puts zones in his room description, zones are an out of chara way of preventing combat in role play. This is another form of metagaming used often.

I don't necessarily agree this is metagaming if perfectly honest. This is a way of controlling the role play in question. It is an out of character instruction to the typist, not the character. If that is metagaming so is stating that it is para format only or that the castle is on a hill. The point is the room description is an out of character message to detail what is contained in the role play, given before the typist or character enters the room. The typist can at that point determine if they wish to enter that role play or not. If they enter, then they must adhere to the rules, just like in any other activity which defines what can or can't be done.

You do not have to implant such knowledge into a character. A character can simply be non aggressive in actions without knowing it is a NKZ.

Hidden Metagaming: We can all make excuses!

A point you brushed upon but I feel more attention needs to be paid to it as it is something which is rife at the minute. Only a few days ago I caught numerous examples and they did not feel as if they were metagaming at all so I will go a little more in depth (if you don't mind!)

So what do we mean by Hidden Metagaming?

It is not really a term you will hear given it is something which is not really discussed so much. It is where a typist makes up a valid in character reason to justify their metagaming. Here is an example.

Bill is in an arena watching a spar and decides to take a severe disliking to a character, we will say for the sake of example that this is down to them believing it is overpowered.
Bill decides that he wants to kill off this character to 'save role play' and decides to find a valid in character reason to justify his actions.
He decides to enter his character into the role play the targeted character is apart of so they can meet, then provokes them with insults and defamatory comments to prompt an aggressive action.

This is legit right? The characters met and are no doubt jumping into aggressive actions because of the interaction they have had..... WRONG!

This is metagaming. Bill as a typist has intentionally joined that role play with one goal in mind, to take out the said targeted character. Whilst on the surface to anyone who does not know his intentions this would seem legitimate, it most certainly is not. It is metagaming. Bill is taking outside information (his annoyance of the overpowered character) and defining his character actions as a result (joining the role play with the intent to kill.) This is the definition of metagaming, taking OOC information and using it to define the characters actions.

These to me are the worse kind of people, this shows that they have a knowledge of the rules and yet decide it is okay to bend them for their own gain. Of course such examples of bending rules are rife in sports and competitive scenarios (look at Russia and the doping issues they have) however this is not a sport, this is not competitive. It is a collaboration between writers to create a story. This shows a complete lack of respect not only for the typist involved but also the craft in which they take on as a hobby.

That is what it all boils down to ladies and gents. It is about respect for your fellow players and the scenarios we place our characters in. If you do not have that respect then there is always the option of not going in the room, not interacting with said characters or typists and staying to your small corner of IMVU. The internet is a big place, one where you can easily avoid people.

Lets use another example however, just to be certain we have this issue embedded.

Bill and Bernadette decide on an agreed action to further the story line of a group, they have collaborated and decided this is where they want the story line to go.
Whilst Bill and Bernadette are running through the scene (for the sake of hypothetical situations we shall say it is a spar) they fall out with each other and Bill decides he no longer wants to collaborate any further due to not being able to stay in the same room as Bernadette.

Now a respectful player will accept this, ret-con the situation to before the spar and decide that due to a breakdown in the relationship they will no longer play there (after all remember it is a collaboration, not a competition.)

However Bernadette decides to claim a kill on Bills character and continues on with the decided action out of pure spite.

This again is metagaming. Whilst the story line was defined it is clear that one does not want to go through with it. Bernadette whilst it is valid on the surface, has continued this on out of pure spite because of the disagreement. This is Bernadette using her character to vent her anger and to spite Bill. This is no longer about the story but to take a 'win' from the disagreement. This is metagaming.

Remember folks, respect is the name of the game here and if you do not have it, chances are the role play and story line will suffer. People can be petty, we have all done so at some point.

DO NOT ALLOW THIS TO EFFECT YOUR CHARACTER. Not only will it be regretful and forever taint your character but also (and trust me on this) it will cause far more drama then it is worth.

Do not forget why we are ALL here, to have fun. Do not take someones fun away by metagaming or mixing.






Anaya
avpic Hardcore GamerThe Iron Rose, DeLaRoseIron DynastyAutum Aliance Badge 1Autum Alliance Badge 2No F*cks Given
Re: What is Meta
June 20, 2016 12:29PM

Very well typed I very much so enjoyed how you went over hidden metagames, it is a very large topic that seems to be going under many noses and causing a large problem in the imvu world.

And I love how we have different opinions on the zones topic, it is a really big one that tends to hit the heads of many. For some that enjoy using them fully oocly as a way of keeping order it is ok, but from what I have seen myself used a lot of the enforcing them icly witch is the metagaming aspect of them. You go into a room it reads zones in the description box, witch is ok you go in there anyway, you post in join into the story line then without you wanting it an unneeded small squabble comes up , then out of the blue in ic a person goes “there are zones in this room only the leader can lift them”  in my own eyes this is meta and just even without the meta label it is not needed at all. The person could have said many other things to help sooth the problem or just oocly tell the people having the dispute ((hey guys we don’t allow combat here, you should wait till the owner shows up)) or something along the lines of such.

To me an invisible magical wall in story line should not exist to prevent me or another player from say starting a bar fight in a tavern or breaking a plant pot, and if a role play is fully for peace then it would be easier to just have in their room descript no combat, or peaceful role play only. And room owners/role play game masters would in my own view be more respectable if instead of saying “we have zones you are not allowed to fight here” but say “can you please not have combat here we aim to have a peaceful role play” or something along the lines of not hiding behind magical zones. I guess to me zones in rp are just redundant you don’t really need them, just be a rp Game Master and put your foot down when needed and say no this is my rp I am sorry we don’t a low combat here, or when they still will not stop being a butt head just inform them a warning and then kick them out. We have a boot button for a reason and in the past many would gloat and be like you kick me and it is auto death, we know now that that is against the rights of players, and for the most part you get a boot you earn it even if you don’t know you did lol and most logical adult players will just shrug and take the boot and move on (some don’t do this but still I said most logical and adult players)

But to me, out of rp zones and enforced oocly is fine, it is when the players bring their magical walls into the rp that it starts to break the 4th wall and it becomes meta to me anyway, but I am for sure to others they are needed and useful.






Relonikiv
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Re: What is Meta
June 26, 2016 05:13AM

I agree with all these points especially about the hidden meta as I feel it's what started a lot of the decay in role-playing as people would find some disagreement and use it in the rp or with the same of select few that exist. The cyber bullies. They would go about using t1 or it's variants to bully other roleplayers for no reason hooking them in to a fight just so they could get those kills. It has happened I knew someone who would use royal t1 just to bully and kill other people's characters. Why for his personal enjoyment. This is metagaming to the extreme and I frown on this greatly.






ATW9989
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Re: What is Meta
June 28, 2016 04:12PM

actually the "hidden meta" is what is called Mixing, Mixing is simply mixing the feelings and emotions of the typest with the characters and making them act on it.

as well as mixing rl talk with rp.(commonly what light rp is)
ex.(in an medieval rp room) Bob: lol -slaps Joe on the back- well got to go to work now. bye -poofs-

Mixing is both of these things mixing player and character feelings and ooc and ic convo's out of ( )






NamelessAssailant
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Re: What is Meta
July 01, 2016 01:39PM

If you want to be super technical mixing is actually metagaming given it is taking something OOC and implanting it in character. Which is what metagaming is. Taking outside knowledge and using it to define your characters actions. The reason it was, and remains split is because as you can see, just one side is a rather large topic.






DayaAutum
avpic SISTERS B4 MISTERSThe Iron Rose, DeLaRoseIron DynastyCreepier is BetterAutum Vampire 1Autum Vampire 2
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Re: What is Meta
July 04, 2016 02:08PM

Meta Gamming is indeed a large and important topic, and one that does need a lot of attention especially here on imvu where our RP's are so open to the public. But let me say this as it is crucial to keep in mind when dealing with this and other subjects..
While we have all seen examples of it and yes it is very disruptive to good role play we need to remember that just like any rule, one can go way to far with it. Any rule can be used for tyranny and shamming a given player unjustly. Any rule taken to extremes can be hazardous. Balance and good and fair judgement is the key.

We also have to remember that many players are totally unaware that some of the things they do is in fact meta gaming and do what they do fully believing that they are within the rules. Maybe we can open another thread on tactics for handling such problems also, when we encounter it.

That said, I used zones for awhile to ensure that any combat would have to be done properly and fairly. Only once the rules were stated and accepted between all involved players, that all combatants were legitimate within the realm that said characters would indeed fight IC given the story lines, would the zones go down. I have since taken the zones down since I can just stop the combat if anyway if the above conditions are not met.

Another thing to consider is, when we make a character, do we not use OOC knowledge to develop it? Consider all the pro's and cons? Exactly where does the meta rule end (not only for the above example but in general) and does it have a common sense boundary?






ATW9989
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Re: What is Meta
July 04, 2016 08:17PM

DayaAutum Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Meta Gamming is indeed a large and important
> topic, and one that does need a lot of attention
> especially here on imvu where our RP's are so open
> to the public. But let me say this as it is
> crucial to keep in mind when dealing with this and
> other subjects..
> While we have all seen examples of it and yes it
> is very disruptive to good role play we need to
> remember that just like any rule, one can go way
> to far with it. Any rule can be used for tyranny
> and shamming a given player unjustly. Any rule
> taken to extremes can be hazardous. Balance and
> good and fair judgement is the key.
>
> We also have to remember that many players are
> totally unaware that some of the things they do is
> in fact meta gaming and do what they do fully
> believing that they are within the rules. Maybe we
> can open another thread on tactics for handling
> such problems also, when we encounter it.
>
> That said, I used zones for awhile to ensure that
> any combat would have to be done properly and
> fairly. Only once the rules were stated and
> accepted between all involved players, that all
> combatants were legitimate within the realm that
> said characters would indeed fight IC given the
> story lines, would the zones go down. I have since
> taken the zones down since I can just stop the
> combat if anyway if the above conditions are not
> met.
>
> Another thing to consider is, when we make a
> character, do we not use OOC knowledge to develop
> it? Consider all the pro's and cons? Exactly
> where does the meta rule end (not only for the
> above example but in general) and does it have a
> common sense boundary?

I agree with you fully, and is it really a break of the meta rule to use ooc info for the player to decide to go to a room? because if it is then simply entering any room is meta since the character cant see the room list. that is why I disagree with Nameless and his saying all meta is a rule break. because by that standard no one can rp at all without doing meta. Thus bringing up your point where does it end?

I fully believe it does have a common sense boundary, if your character can have IC reasons for doing any action the player wants it to do then its fully in limits. once you cant explain why your character is doing something or your pulling things out of your ass. ex. " I'm trying to kill bob because I heard he r*p*d someone" when bob doesn't do exotic rps. is thus meta as it doesn't have a logical reason.

So I'd say that as long as there is a logical reason for your characters actions that doesn't conflict with how the other person rps then its valid.






NamelessAssailant
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Re: What is Meta
July 08, 2016 03:31AM

Quote:
I agree with you fully, and is it really a break of the meta rule to use ooc info for the player to decide to go to a room? because if it is then simply entering any room is meta since the character cant see the room list. that is why I disagree with Nameless and his saying all meta is a rule break. because by that standard no one can rp at all without doing meta. Thus bringing up your point where does it end?

That is not what I said in the slightest but okay. I'll still explain why it is not. Your character when you enter the room is not aware of the room list, plus such information is OOC. You are not aware when you look into a room which have a character inside and unless you know them personally, which characters they will be playing. You are using OOC information to judge whether you as a typist will enjoy the RP. That is not Mixing nor Meta. Which is why when you see such things as NKZ or NFZ. They are not metagaming, they are rules and boundaries laid out by the room owner towards the typist.

Your other example is meta. You are aware that Bob is playing a character and using that reason to ensure your character finds and kills it. OOC information (Knowing Bob is playing a character) too alter character actions (Kill Bobs character with your own.) Metagaming.

To the quoted (DayaAutum) using zones is a means to control your roleplay as brushed upon above. They are neither mixing nor meta. (in the same way that D&D campaigns and their rules are not.) If people cannot accept your rules (zones) then you are well within your rights to boot them from the RP.

Creation of characters can fall into the grey area at times, but it depends on how you create and develop your character and what it is created for. A lot nowadays (due to the arena junkie mentality) create characters simply to beat another, often with the DBZ effect where power levels of new characters grow once beaten. This is meta. Developing is different and should be down to experience of that character. Of course if a water cast beats it then it is reasonable to learn how to control the element of water.

The truth is, as much as many would not like to accept it, that the border between what is right can't be decided by many but by the player who is making the actions. Only they know their thought process behind it, only they can tell you the real reasons behind such actions.

How do you solve this? There isn't really a way. Until people get out of the competitive mentality people will always search for ways to bend the rules.

Collaboration, not competition.





DayaAutum
avpic SISTERS B4 MISTERSThe Iron Rose, DeLaRoseIron DynastyCreepier is BetterAutum Vampire 1Autum Vampire 2
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Re: What is Meta
July 10, 2016 02:27PM

Very well said Nameless! That is well thought and helpful. I must apologize if anyone felt I was implying anyone in particular or anything said in particular. I just merely wished to express the need for balance in these rules as some will go overboard, it's only a matter of time before it happens. (I think everyone who has been on imvu long enough has seen such things abused and exploited both by players and a rare few unscrupulous empires) I have realy enjoyed the thought and care put into this topic.

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